Subject: Re: The Bride (The Church or Israel)?
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 01:00:01 +0000
To: "Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup"
From:          Robo Remy 
Subject:       Re: The Bride (The Church or Israel)?

Eddie -

I STRONGLY CHALLENGE YOU to produce ONE single scripture in the entire Tanakh
or B'rit Hadashah that equates Israel with the Church.  Israel is a distinct,
separate entity from the beginning and always has been.   Israel cannot mean
one thing one place and another another place.  Otherwise the "all Israel will
be saved" in Romans and various places throughout the Tanakh is meaningless.
If believing Gentiles are also Israel how come they are not saved already?  If
you still have the book Christianity, a New Roman Religion or a Sect of
Biblical Judaism, I refer you to the chapter Household of God.

Why is there a continual attempt to induct Gentiles into "the firstborn club"
if it doesn't make any difference if one is a Jew or Gentile in the sight of

By the way - every single cult in the world, starting with the Roman
cult, and ending with the modern cults like Jehovah's witnesses,
believes that IT is Israel.  We had more hope for you.  
Congratulations.  You have now entered into the official realm of the
cults.  I suggest you re-examine your doctrine: Gentiles are not
second class.  They are just not and never will be Jews OR Israel. 


>From Eddie:


      I praise God that you are a Jewish believer in Messiah. 
However, my heart aches that you subscribe to the prideful arrogance 
within SOME the Messianic Jewish community who feel "threatened" that 
that the Bible declares that BOTH Jew and non-Jew are ONE in Messiah.        

      I pray that you will submit your heart to God's Word and allow the 
Holy Spirit / Ruach HaKodesh to reveal what the written Word of God 
says about this issue. When this happens, I pray that you will be 
able to greet a fellow non-Jewish believer in Messiah as BRETHREN 
and not just SING Psalm 133 but actually LIVE IT. God COMMANDS a 
GREAT BLESSING when BRETHREN (Jew and non-Jew) dwell together in 
UNITY (as one in Messiah). (Psalm 133)

Please allow the Word of God speak for itself on this issue. Consider 
the following:

Yeshua/Jesus died for BOTH Jew and non-Jew and BOTH are fully 
accepted by God with EQUAL STATUS as members in the Kingdom 
of God by accepting Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah. 
         In Acts 15:15:7-9 it is written:
 "And when there had been much disputing (over Jewish attitude toward
the non-Jew regarding Torah observance), Peter rose up, and said
unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God
made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the
word of the gospel and believe. And God which knoweth the hearts
bare them witness giving them (the non-Jewish believer) the Holy
Spirit, even as he did unto us (the Jewish believer): and put NO
DIFFERENCE between us (Jewish believer) and them (non-Jewish
believer) purifying their heart by faith"
         In Romans 3:22 it is written:
"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ
unto ALL and upon ALL them that believe: for there is NO DIFFERENCE
(between Jew and non-Jew)"
         In Romans 3:29-30 it is written:
"Is he the God of the Jews (Jewish believers) only? is he not also
of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also.  Seeing it is one God
which shall justify the circumcision (Jewish believer) by faith, and
the uncircumcision (non-Jewish believer) through faith".
         In Romans 10:12 it is written:
"For there is NO DIFFERENCE between Jew (Jewish believer) and the
Greek (non-Jewish believer): for the same Lord over ALL is rich unto
ALL that call upon him."
        In Galations 3:28, it is written:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free,
there is neither male nor female: for you are ALL ONE in Christ
         In Galations 5:6, it is written:
"For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision (Jewish believer) availeth
any thing, nor uncircumcision (non-Jewish believer) but faith which
worketh by LOVE"
          In Colossians 3:11 it is written:
 "Where there is neither Greek (non-Jewish believer) nor Jew (Jewish
believer), circumcision (Jewish believer) nor uncircumcism
(non-Jewish believer) ... but Christ is ALL and IN ALL"

       Secondly, in order to understand who the "church" and Israel 
are (they are synonymous terms exclusive of "replacement theology" 
which also twists the Biblical truth of the terms church and Israel), 
you NEED to understand God's Covenant with Abraham.  Part of the 
misunderstanding in this area is that VERY FEW believers know the 
complete story of God's Covenant with Abraham and how the OT and NT 
are so wonderfully tied together by understanding this covenant. The 
fullness of this covenant is God's people keeping His commandments, 
faith in Messiah, God's people living in the land that He promised 
Abraham and God dwelling with His people. (Ezekiel 37:15-27). 
However, in order for this to take place, BOTH houses of Israel 
(Northern Kingdom and Southern Kingdom) need to be reunited and BOTH 
houses of Israel (Northern Kingdom / Christianity and Southern 
Kingdom / Judaism) need to repent before God of how they have erred 
in their ways. 

           The Northern Kingdom / Christianity is guilty of departing 
from her roots and her heritage. She has called the Torah "a strange 
thing" (Hosea 8:12). The Southern Kingdom / Judaism is guilty of not 
recognizing and accepting who is the Messiah. Because both have erred 
in their ways, their has been a family feud for CENTURIES. The 
Northern Kingdom / Christianity has vexed the Southern Kingdom / 
Judaism. We have done so by mixing Roman paganism which has it's 
origin in Egypt and Babylon with faith in the God of Israel and have 
called this system of worship ---- Christianity. We have failed to 
recognize the "golden calf system of worship" which has been 
institutionalized over the centuries. In doing so, historical 
Christianity has caused great harm and hurt to the the Southern 
Kingdom / the House of Judah or the Jewish people. The Northern 
Kingdom / Christianity needs to do "Teshuvah" and repent before God 
of the sins of her forefathers and embrace her roots. She needs to 
begin to keep more and more the commandments of God, embrace the 
Jewish people and support the land of Israel. 

              The Southern Kingdom / Judaism needs to quit vexing the 
Northern Kingdom / Christianity for believing that Yeshua/Jesus is 
Messiah.The Jewish believer in Messiah needs to repent and quit 
disregarding God's Word by seeing the non-Jewish believer in Messiah 
as a "second class citizen" in the Kingdom of God. 
               Both Judaism and Christianity has erred in worshipping 
the God of Israel. BOTH are guilty. It is not a matter of choosing 
one over another. Is today's Judaism Biblical? In some cases it is 
and in other cases it is not. They have preserved some truths and 
departed from others. Is today's Christianity Biblical? In some cases 
it is and is some cases it is not. Christianity has preserved faith 
and believe in Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah. Judaism has preserved our 
hertitage. Neither "religion" needs to be worshipped above the other 
for what they believe or what they don't believe. But we ARE to 
worship the God of Israel in Spirit and in Truth !!!

                              WHO IS ISRAEL / CHURCH ???

                Are the Jehovah witnesses Israel? Absolutely not! Are 
the 144,000 witnesses in the book of Revelation Jehovah witnesses? 
Absolutely not! Are the Mormons Israel? Absolutely not!  Does the 
distortions and twists of Biblical truth by the enemy (Ha Satan) 
negate Biblical truth? No! Did God give us the Holy Spirit / Ruach 
HaKodesh to be able to DISCERN between DISTORTIONS and what is 
Biblically true? Absolutely! 

                  So does believing what the Word of God 
says regarding Jew and non-Jew being one in Messiah (as quoted in the 
scriptures above) and believing that God has ONE FAMILY that is called 
by HIS NAME (not Judaism definition or Christianities definition) and 
the God of Israel has a family (both Jew and non-Jew) who is called 
ISRAEL make one a cult by believing this? Since when does believing 
that the God of Israel is our FATHER and HE has ONE FAMILY consisting 
of Jewish and non-Jewish believer in Messiah who are BOTH redeemed 
by the BLOOD of Messiah make one a "cult" for believing that this is 
what the scriptures teach on this issue? Yet, for making the 
statement that God has one family who is called Israel, we are a 
cult? Remy, I pray that you will consider the words that came from 
your heart but more importantly the words of God written Word !!!!

       Actually, the ENTIRE Bible tells us who Israel is. It is very 
easy to understand if you understand God's Covenant with Abraham. 
The entire Bible from OT into the NT is a story of God's covenant with 
Abraham.  God's promise to Abraham was that from His seed that 
ALL NATIONS and ALL FAMILIES would be GRAFTED (as the Rabbi's 
interpret the meaning in Hebrew of Genesis 12:3).  

God made a covenent with Abraham. In Genesis 12:3 it is written:

"And I will bless those that bless thee and curse him that curses thee
and IN THEE shall ALL the FAMILIES of the earth be BLESSED"

        In Hebrew, this verse reads:

"VENIVRECU bekah kol mishpachot ha-adamah"

        It is the Hebrew word VENIVRECU that is most often translated
in our English texts as "will be blessed". But the usual Hebrew word
for "will be blessed" is YIVRECU NOT VENIVRECU.

        The word VENIVRECU is only found in TWO other places in the
Torah.  One is Genesis 18:18 and the other is Genesis 28:14.

         Let us look at these texts.

In Genesis 18:17-18, G-d is about to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah and it
is written:

"And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do:
Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and
all the nations of the earth VENIVRECU in him"

In Genesis 28:14, the same promise is repeated to Jacob and his 
descendents at it is written:

"And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt 
SPREAD ABROAD to the west and to the east and to the north and to the
south: and in thee and in thy seed VENIVRECU all the families of the

          In the Rabbinical commentaries, it is suggested that 
VENIVRECU should be translated as "will be GRAFTED or 

          There are five places in the Talmud and other Jewish 
writings where the word VENIVRICU is also translated as "GRAFTED or
INTERMINGLED" (Mishna Kelaim 7:1, Sotah 43a, Rashbam to 28:14,
Chizkuni, Da'as Zekeinim and quoted by Tur).

          The Apostle Paul was a Pharisee of Pharisee's and from the
tribe of Benjamin (Philippians 3:5) and studied Torah from the Torah
sage Gamaliel (Acts 22:3).  Because the Apostle Paul also studied the
Oral Law ( Acts 28:17), he more than likely would have been familiar
with this teaching and understanding. It was the Apostle Paul who
wrote in Romans 11:13, 17-19

"For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the
Gentiles, I magnify mine office ...and if some of the branches be
broken off, and thou a wild olive tree was GRAFTED IN AMONG THEM
(Genesis 12:3, Genesis 18:18, 28:14) and with them and partakest of
the ROOT and fatness of the olive tree. BOAST NOT against the branches
(the Jewish people through replacement theology). But if thou boast,
thou bearest not the ROOT but the ROOT thee. Thou wilt say then, The
branches were broken off that I might be GRAFTED in"

In Romans 11:25-26, it is written:

"For I would NOT, brethren that ye should be ignorant of this 
mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits: that blindness 
in part is happened to Israel (both Northern Kingdom and Southern 
Kingdom for departing from Torah because the Torah is LIGHT ... in 
Psalms 119:97, 105 ... O how I LOVE thy TORAH ... Thy WORD is a LAMP 
unto my feet and a LIGHT unto my path .... Proverbs 6:23 ... For the 
COMMANDMENT is a LAMP and the TORAH is LIGHT ...) until the FULLNESS 
OF THE GENTILES (Melo Ha Goyim ... all the families of the earth 
being GRAFTED into the Covenant that God made with Abraham) come in. 
And so all ISRAEL shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come 
out of Zion the deliverer and shall turn away ungodliness from JACOB"

All Israel are those that turn from transgression (repent / Teshuvah) 
in Jacob (Isaiah 59:20, Romans 11:26) and who believe in the 
DELIVERER FROM ZION (the Messiah). Transgression is departing from 
the Torah for sin is the transgression of the Torah (I John 3:4). 

Romans 11:25-26 comes from Isaiah 59:20 where the REDEEMER (the 
Messiah) shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from 
transgression (depart from Torah) in JACOB.

Jacob is ISRAEL. The Messiah will only rule over ONE FAMILY forever. 
This family is the HOUSE OF JACOB / ISRAEL (Luke 1:33). This family 
is called Israel. This family is also called the Kehilat / Kahal. 
This family is called in Greek (Ekklesia). This family is called in 
English ... the church. The "church" consists of both Jewish and 
non-Jewish believer in the God of Israel and His Messiah. The HOUSE 
OF JACOB ./ ISRAEL was established through God's covenant with 
Abraham. In this covenant, God promised that ALL FAMILIES of the 
earth would be blessed (Hebrew GRAFTED) ... Genesis 12:3). 

In Genesis 48:5-6, Ephraim and Manasseh were ADOPTED into the family 
of JACOB / ISRAEL and were given the RIGHTS of the FIRST BORN.  In 
Genesis 48:3, 5-6, it is written:

"And Jacob said unto Joseph ... and now thy two sons, Ephraim and 
Manasseh which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came 
unto thee into Egypt are mine AS REUBEN AND SIMEON, they shall be 
mine and thy issue which thou begettest after them, shall be thine, 
and shall be called AFTER THE NAME OF THEIR BRETHREN in their 

So, Ephraim and Manasseh who had NO LEGAL INHERITANCE were ADOPTED 
into Jacob's family and given the FIRST BORN INHERITANCE of his 
NATURAL born sons, Reuben and Simeon. 

In Hebrews 12:23, both Jewish and non-Jewish believer in Messiah (the 
church / Israel) is called the FIRST BORN of God as it is written:

"To the general ASSEMBLY and CHURCH of the FIRSTBORN ..."
For further insight on how the OT and NT are connected with each other 
through God's Covenant with Abraham and how God desired to bring both 
Jew and non-Jew into a covenant relationship with Him and allow them 
(called the church / Israel ) to be one in Messiah, I would recommend 
you read Chapter 13 of my book, "Who is the Bride of Christ?" 
entitled, "God's Covenant with Abraham".

You can read it at  my Web Site located at:

     Remy, I pray now from some of the scriptures which I was able to 
share with you that you will see that the God of Israel has one 
family who consists of both Jewish and non-Jewish believer in Messiah 
and are given the name in the Bible of  the church / Israel or the 
house of Jacob and that Messiah will rule over His body, the house of 
Jacob / Israel  forever (Luke 1:33) 

                           Eddie Chumney
                           Hebraic Heritage Ministries Int'l