From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 1997 12:55 AM
To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup
Subject: The return of the Messiah / The Day of the Lord
FL:0
From: James Olin Oden
To: "'heb_roots_chr@geocities.com'" <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Subject: RE: "Gathering together unto Him" (II Thess 2:1)
> To anyone on this list that is counting on a pre-trib rapture: Ask
> yourself this question--"If I realize some day in the future that the
> tribulation has begun, and the rapture has not happened, will my faith
> be shaken?" If the answer is "yes," or even "maybe," you're placing too
> much emphasis on the rapture and not enough on Yeshua. Our "blessed
> hope" is the fact that Yeshua IS returning, not WHEN.
>
From James:
****************
I agree so much with this. Many times I have seen believers counting on
getting out of the tribulations. Let me tell you, to some extent many of
our brothers and sisters are already going through and have gone through
great tribulations (not to say they have gone through the one prophesied in
Revelation). In China, Sudan, and many other places they lose their lively
hoods and even their lives for the name of Messiah Y'shua. They are beaten
and cursed, but yet their reward is great in Heaven. So whether it is
pretrib, or posttrib, let us be ready to suffer for Messiah; it is our
calling.
Shalom B'Shem Y'shua...James
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From: Jamie
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: "Gathering together unto Him" (II Thess 2:1)
Dave,
Thanks for your post. The pre/post trib issue is not a salvation
issue. I don't have much to say on pre/post trib. I just know He is
coming back.
You are right -- The issue is that He *is* coming back, not *when*.
We just all must be prepared.
--Jamie
From Eddie:
**************
In truth, it IS important WHEN Messiah is returning but MOST
IMPORTANT is that we are READY as Jamie so nicely mentioned.
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From: "Dave Jewell"
To: <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: "Gathering together unto Him" (II Thess 2:1)
> To anyone on this list that is counting on a pre-trib rapture: Ask
> yourself this question--"If I realize some day in the future that
> the tribulation has begun, and the rapture has not happened, will my
> faith be shaken?" If the answer is "yes," or even "maybe," you're
> placing too much emphasis on the rapture and not enough on Yeshua.
> Our "blessed hope" is the fact that Yeshua IS returning, not WHEN.
Amen to that! I agree that it wouldn't be a great idea for us to
start a big debate on this.
But I just wanted to say that we should each live holy lives, in such
a state of readiness that we would not be ashamed if Yeshua came back
tomorrow (i.e. a pre-Trib rapture). On the other hand, we each need
to develop such strength of character, perseverance and faith that if
we are destined to go through the Tribulation, the Lord will not be
ashamed of our conduct in the midst of persecution.
I'll leave you guessing as to which side of the fence I'm on! <grin>
Every blessing,
Dave
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From: "Watchman"
To: <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: "Gathering together unto Him" (II Thess 2:1)
shalom,
Salvation is important and that does involve a heart change, but it
doesnt stop with the heart. The new covenent is the Law of God on our
hearts (Jer. 31:31). Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto
my path. In the parable of the 10 virgins 5 don't have oil and 5 do.
What is oil used for? Well, it fuels a lamp which we know is wisdom
to follow God, i.e. be ready and watching. Oil is also symbolic of the
Holy Spirit/Ruach ha Koddesh. Without the Ruach ha Koddesh we cannot
have wisdom to know what that word /Yeshua means. Knowing the word is
good, but knowing what to do is what matters.
Pre, Mid, Day of the Lord, or Post tribulation are points of
contention in the body, but as Paul said, he contended daily/earnestly
for the faith/truth and established doctrine. All the views on the
rapture cannot be right, thus to be walking in wisdom we should be
willing to analyse what the word of God says, and not focus on what
someone taught us. My point being that many really dont have a solid
biblical basis for what they believe concerning this. I myself
believe we are changed as 1Co 15:52 says, at the last trump. The 7th
trump is the last trump and that is the Day of the Lord. Jesus said
there would be sign in the heavens, the man of sin would be revealed,
then AFTER that tribulation we would see the son of man coming. Paul
made it very clear in 2thes that no one was changed until after the
son of perdition is revealed/ the anti-christ. I wrote up a study on
why I stand on the Day of the Lord being when we are changed to new
bodies and invite you to read for yourself and comment.
http://www.supernet.net/~watchman
Shalom,
Watchman
From Eddie:
***************
I have heard those who are "mid-trib" say that the "rapture"
is in the middle of the tribulation because the "rapture" is at the
"last trump" (I Cor 15:51-52) and the "last trump" is the last of the
seven trumpets in the book of Revelation.
However, this particular reasoning shows a lack of
understanding for our Hebraic Roots.
As I explain in my book, "The Seven Festivals of the Messiah"
in Chapter 7 which explains "Rosh Hashanah / The Feast of Trumpets"
which can be read at:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2175/chap7.html
the "last trump" is a JEWISH IDIOM for Rosh HaShanah. Tying the
"last trump" to the seven trumpets in the book of Revelation is using
"Greek" reasoning and not "Hebraic" application of the scripture.
A Jewish source which will tell you that the "last trump" is a
term for Rosh HaShanah can be found in your local library. The book
is called, "Festivals of the Jewish year" by an Orthodox Jew named
Theodore Gastor. It is found on the chapter on Rosh HaShanah.
Regarding the "Day of the Lord", this is also a JEWISH IDIOM
for the SABBATH and the 1,000 year Messianic age. The SABBATH is
called the "Day of the Lord" in (Isaiah 58:13) as it is written:
"If thou turn away thy foot from the SABBATH, from doing thy pleasure
on MY HOLY DAY: (and thus became knows as THE DAY OF THE LORD)
and call the HOLY OF THE LORD honorable ... then I will CAUSE the to
ride upon the HIGH PLACES of the earth: and feed thee with the
HERITAGE OF JACOB thy father: for the mouth of the Lord has spoken
it"
The "Day of the Lord" is described in the Bible as being a "time of
DARKNESS" AND a time of GREAT PEACE.
In Joel 2:1-2, the "Day of the Lord" is THICK DARKNESS as it is
written:
"Blow the TRUMPET / SHOFAR in Zion and sound an alarm in my holy
mountain: let all the inhabitants of the LAND TREMBLE: for the DAY OF
THE LORD comes, it is near at hand: a DAY OF DARKNESS and of
GLOOMINESS, a day of clouds and THICK DARKNESS ..."
Notice that the "Day of the Lord" is also a DAY OF CLOUDS.
In Revelation 1:7 it is written:
"Behold, he COMES WITH CLOUDS, and every eye shall see him and they
also which pierced him and the kindreds of the earth shall WAIL
because of him."
In Isaiah 2:2-3, it is also a time of great peace when the
Torah is taught from Jerusalem and they "beat their swords into
plowshares and their spears into pruninghooks".
A IDIOM for the day of the Lord is "In that day" or "At
that time". It is a MAJOR theme of the book of Isaiah. Over and over
in the book of Isaiah, you will see the phrase, "In that day" or "At
that time".
All of this is outlined in my "Line upon Line" series
located at my Web address:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2175/heb_root.html
How can the "day of the Lord" be BOTH DARKNESS and PEACE? The
time of DARKNESS is the tribulation period.
In Jewish eschatology, the "tribulation" known as the "Chevlai shel
Mashiach" / Birthpangs of the Messiah, is the FIRST SEVEN YEARS of
the 1,000 year Messianic Age.
In the Talmud in San Hadrin 97 and 98, it will tell you that
the seven days of creation are a spiritual blueprint of 7,000 years
of time. (Psalm 90:4, II Peter 3:8). The Sabbath or the 7th day is a
picture of the 1,000 year Messianic age.
#1) From Adam to the Abraham was 2,000 years and this age is called
"TOHU" or DESOLATION.
#2) From Abraham to Messiah was 2,000 years and is called the age
of "Torah" or INSTRUCTION.
#3) From Messiah to the Messianic age is 2,000 years and is called
"Yemot Mashiach" or the "Days of the Messiah".
#4) The Messianic Age is called the "Athid Lavo" or the future
coming.
After the "Athid Lavo" / Future coming is the Olam Habba or
the "World to Come". The "World to Come" will be like the "Garden of
Eden". From a Greek mindset, time is linear. From a Hebraic mindset,
time is circular.
Time is going FORWARD to the PAST. What WILL BE (Olam Haba /
World To Come / Heaven) is WHAT WAS (the Garden of Eden).
In Ecclesiastes 1:9 it is written:
"The THING that HAS BEEN, it is that WHICH SHALL BE; and that WHICH
IS DONE is that which SHALL BE DONE: and there is no new thing under
the sun".
Once again, this is explained in MUCH GREATER DETAIL in
my "Line upon Line" Bible teaching series. It can be seen at:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2175/heb_root.html
The DAY OF THE LORD is also a term for the SABBATH. The
DAY OF THE LORD is a term for the Messianic Age. The SABBATH is a
RESEARSAL of what life will be like during the Messianic Age. The
Sabbath is seen as being a BRIDE. The BRIDE of Messiah will dwell
with the Messiah during the Messianic age. There is so much that the
sabbath and the "day of the Lord" teaches us when it is seen in it's
correct Hebraic context.
Eddie Chumney
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