From: heb_roots_chr@mail.geocities.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 1997 12:41 AM
To: Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup
Subject: Re: Chanukah rather than Christmas / Golden Calf
From: Cherie Ching
Subject: Re: Chanukah rather than Christmas / Golden Calf
Dear Eddie and All:
I'm very glad you are having this discussion now. It gives people several
months to prepare to celebrate Channukah, which falls on 24 December this
year. But Channukah was not commanded by God to be celebrated. It's rather
like the 4th of July, you MAY celebrate it, and it is full of meaning and a
lot of fun, but you are not disobeying God if you do not. There are 7
commanded festivals, established by God forever. We know to keep these,
but the others are optional. I hate to see people put themselves into
bondage over these things. I know Eddie agrees. So, I wish you all a
very, happy and joyous Channukah season (here sooner than you think!) and
the freedom in Messiah to enjoy it!
Cherie Ching
******************************************************************************
From: Sandi
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Chanukah rather than Christmas / Golden Calf
>
> My question today has to do with the recent discussion concerning
> giving up Christmas and celebraating Chanukah instead. Since
> Chanukah
> is not a Biblical holiday
I would like to suggest that you go back to John 10:22 and read where
Yeshua celebrated Chanukah...
Also, I found a website on Mithraism that will verify some of the
information that Eddie has shared on the origins of christmas.
The address is
<A HREF="http://www.tao.ca/~hermes3/mithras.htm">Mithraism</A>
Shalom,
Sandi
************************************************************************
From: Gregory Richardson
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Chanukah rather than Christmas / Golden Calf
Bob wrote:
> My question today has to do with the recent discussion concerning
> giving up Christmas and celebraating Chanukah instead. Since
> Chanukah
> is not a Biblical holiday and seems to have nothing to do with
> Christ's birthday, why should non jewish Christians celebrate it?
> If there is a great likelihood that Christ was born during
> Tabernacles, shouldn't that be the time for Christians to celebrate
> His birth, rather than Chanukah?
>
> Thank you for providing access to a wonderful window on true
> Christianity.
>
> Maranatha,
> Bob
>
Bob is only partly correct. Chanukah is not a festival that the Lord
commanded. It is, however, Biblical. (John 10:22)
-Gregory R.
**********************************************************************
From: "Pam Staley"
To: "Eddie Chumney" <heb_roots_chr@geocities.com>
Subject: Chanukah/Christmas
Although the debate will go on until the end of time...I'm sure that
most of us on this newsgroup truly are searching for the 'truth'. We
have been programmed from infanthood concerning the pagan holidays,
and have innocently followed these teachings and glossings over of the
true Biblical Feast Days, because we trusted the 'teachers'. Most of
us have been brought up in church surroundings...that means that we
are programmed to accept them...after all, 'we' didn't really have to
study...just listen and accept.
However, G-d is calling His people out...and to do that He must first
teach them His precepts AND His commandments. What commandments?? The
Torah.....a subject most christians know little to nothing about. And
HOW does He teach us?? by first putting a yearning in our heart...a
quest for truth, a search for Him...and this leads directly to the
FESTIVALS OF THE LORD.... these are our teaching tools...our blocks of
understanding....our text book. Thru these Festivals, He has outlined
the blueprint for mankind, He has shown us the beginning to the
end...everything is explained in these Festivals and in the
Tabernacle.
But as babes, we must fight constantly with the old familiaraity of
Egypt...it was easy to listen and accept...it was simple to be told
what to believe, when to believe it and what to do. NOW He wants us
to search out the truth, to explore His ways, .... to KNOW Him.
Unlearning...can be painful, can be hurtful but can be so cleansing.
But know that you will have those close to you that will try to
disassociate themselves with you, will mock you and will cause you
pain. There are many trials and tribulations that you will have to
endure as you slowly learn the ways of Yahweh...for they are strange
to us who have been 'christianized' and who have lost the identity of
our roots. Our heritage has been wiped clean...as the church began a
new page in the early 300's...she took the eraser, and wiped the
chalkboard clean of our Hebraic Heritage, our Israelite roots, and had
us write 500 times..."I am a Christian in the Roman Church...I do not
belong to the House of Israel", I am a Christian in the Roman
Church...I do not belong to the House of Israel", I am a Christian in
the Roman Church...I do not belong to the House of Israel". It is a
hard thing to unlearn...especially when you are surrounded by others
who are still repeating it over and over and over....
BUT the goodnews is that HE IS FAITHFUL....thru all the trials and
tribulations that we go thru, thru all the tears, wrong paths, and
good intentions seemingly gone wrong....HE will uphold us..HE will
carry us...HE will not forsake us....>>> HE HAS A PLAN << and
everything we go thru, absolutely everything...will work towards our
good...for those who love the Lord and are called....
So, dear friends...those of you just beginning on this new fork in the
road of life, have patience....trust in the Lord...and He will teach
you what you need to know....ask and He shall answer....
and sometimes......He'll answer thru those of us on this newsgroup who
have been around for awhile....and have the scars to prove it! ;->
Shalom, and Shalom
Pam
**************************************************************************
From: drleves
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Re: Chanukah rather than Christmas / Golden Calf
The church today is liken on to Jews being called out of Babylon.
they had aquired strange customs and strange wives. The L-rd required
them to divorce and send away those pagan spouses and offsprings.
Ezra 10:2-3 2 And Shechaniah the son of Jehiel, one of the sons of Elam,
spoke up and said to Ezra, "We have trespassed against our God, and
have taken pagan wives from the peoples of the land; yet now there is
hope in Israel in spite of this. 3 "Now therefore, let us make a
covenant with our God to put away all these wives and those who have
been born to them, according to the advice of my master and of those
who tremble at the commandment of our God; and let it be done
according to the law. (NKJ)
Today the L-rd is calling His bride out of Babylon (the old religious
system) to His Torah. The wives of today's believers are the pagan
rituals and so called holydays of Christmas, Easter, etc. The
Samaritans had tried to find the G-d of Israel in duplicating some of
the ordinances and mixing them with old paganistic concepts. And
Jesus said to the little lady at the well, John 4:22 22 "You worship
what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the
Jews. (NKJ)
Separating from those old concepts is hard, and only a sincere heart
can the Golden calf of religion be broken, and that is having a real
relationship with the L-rd. His Holy Torah then will set people free,
from the bondage of religion and commercialized religious customs.
Don
***************************************************************************
From: Hal Ambuter
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: RE: Chanukah rather than Christmas / Golden Calf -Reply
Eddie,
Well the debate rages on!!!
I will take the position of an observer:
This conference talks about returning to the "true
roots of the faith" and its application to "New
Testament" Scripture - especially in regards to the
feasts. But is that what is happening? It seems like
all we do is debate Easter/Passover and
Christmas/Chanukah. The discussion from "the
enlightened ones" is how unscriptural Christmas and
Easter are and how they are unbiblical feasts. Yet,
when Passover and, especially, Succott roll around it
seems that there is only discussion regarding the
"Old Testament" scriptures and at best the Millennial
Kingdom.
If the birth of Messiah and His death, burial, and
resurrection are intricately linked to the feasts, then
where is the positive commentary on this? This is
most evident with the Christmas/Chanukah/Succott
debate. Where is the celebration or at best
acknowledgment of the birth of Messiah at Succott
from the Messianic community? If Messiah was born
on Succott and not December 25 then show the "rest
of us" the proper way to celebrate or acknowledge it.
And please don't say that there are no biblical
mandates or instructions for how to do this - because
there are not any for any of the other feasts either.
The bulk of this "celebration stuff" is man-made. Let's
face it and be honest. If the Jewish community has
found ways to celebrate Purim (with virtually zero
"instructions"), then it must have ways to celebrate
the birth of her Messiah. If we can develop
"instructions" / customs to wave noice makers when
Haman's name is mentioned during the reading of the
book of Ester and even have specific instructions as
to which way a Tallis should be put on then we can
find ways to celebrate one of the most important
events in all of Scripture - the birth of the King. Don't
you think???
Having been through the Fall of 1996 with this
conference, I observed no, none, zip discussion
around the time of Succott regarding the birth of
Y'shua. No, this discussion only comes up around
Chanukah or a "safer" time like what is happening
right now. And even then, the discussion goes
something like this: "believers should be celebrating
Chanukah and not Christmas --- none-the-less
Jesus was born at Succott anyway."
I have been loosely associated with the Messianic
Movement (being a Jewish believer myself) for 13
years now (on July 4). Not one Succott celebration
that I have attended focused at all on the birth of
Messiah. All the celebration is focused on the
Millennial Kingdom and the coming visible reign of the
conquering and victorious Messiah. This is great and
highly biblical. But if Succott is truly the "time" in
which the Messiah was born - instead of December -
then why is this monumental event missing from the
"Messianic liturgy"?
In regards to Chanukah. . .I said it before and I will
say it again. Chanukah is not a biblical feast
anymore than Christmas or Easter is. In fact, there is
not one mention of the Chanukah account in the
whole of Scripture. The whole "thing" is legend -
perhaps it is true - but there is no biblical account of
its authenticity. There are no scriptures which speak
to spinning wooden dreidels and lighting Menorah's
and giving presents for eight days. Yet, we are told
that it is "more biblical" and more "spiritual" to do this
than to have a Christmas tree or having lights around
the house or in giving presents. No parallels here???
There are no scriptures that speak to even the
existence of the Maccabees and yet we are told that
this extra biblical account is more important to
celebrate than the 4-6 solid chapters of scripture
regarding the virgin birth and the eventual birth of
Messiah found in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke
and John. And now some are writing that though are
salvation will not be effected, our rewards/position in
Heaven and perhaps even our prayer lives will be
effected if we celebrate Christmas instead of
Chanukah. What is wrong here? Does this puzzle
anyone else???
Why is this? I fear to ask the question for my
conjecture is that the birth of the Messiah has "bad"
or "uncomfortable" connotations for Jewish believers
and Jews in general. I sense that this scriptural
account is too "gentile" for some of my brethren. I
fear to say the following in that it may offend
someone. . . But just as the Jews of the first century
were looking for a victorious, mighty warrior, we too
(my Jewish brothers and sisters) would like to forget
that He first came to us as a babe in the manger,
wrapped in swaddling clothes for there was no room
for Him in the inn. This is a very humbling account of
our Savior - it is uncomfortable to think about and
apply to our personal lives. We would much rather
think about the resurrection, the triumph over Satan,
and His Second Coming than a meek and helpless
little baby born in a trough. Yet, it is the truth!
Messiah was born this way. Pastors have been
preaching countless sermons on it to convey its
relevance and importance in the believers life.
Believers have composed elaborate and moving
hymns and songs to convey the message of
"Christmas" to the world. Yet, the Messianic
community seems to reject, or perhaps more kinder,
ignores this section of Scripture. I ask again, "why is
this"?
None-the-less, this debate will continue. Jews will
keep on celebrating Chanukah and the gentiles will
keep on celebrating Christmas. The wall between us
remains. There seems to be no move towards
resolution. It is a shame. . .
Hal
From Eddie:
**************
Hal, I would like to comment on several of your questions.
You ask:
>
>"If the birth of Messiah and His death, burial, and
>resurrection are intricately linked to the feasts, then
>where is the positive commentary on this?"
>
I have written a 230 page book entitled, "The Seven Festivals
of the Messiah". MANY on this newsgroup have written and purchased
the book from me, thank you and I pray that your spiritual life has
been enriched. The Festivals are RICH in meaning and there are MANY
themes in each festival. The ENTIRE TEXT of my book, "Seven Festivals
of the Messiah" is at my Web site located at:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2175/heb_root.html
Anybody on this newsgroup (or anyone in the world who is
surfing the Internet) can go to this site at any time and read about
how the festivals teach about the 1st and 2nd coming of the Messiah
and our personal relationship with God.
This newsgroup is not meant to be a substitute for personal
study. At best, it can encourage our members to "taste" of these
things. There is a VERY DIVERSE audience on this newsgroup. Some are
only beginning to study, others have studied for years. We have new
members almost every day. So, the best that we can do is discuss
issues and point people in the right direction. We can refer them to
resource materials for further study.
Yes, the festivals teach about the 1st and 2nd coming of
Yeshua/Jesus. Yes, they teach about the ways of the Kingdom of God.
Yes, they teach about our personal relationship with God. Yes,
Messiah died on Passover. Yes, he was in the ground on unleavened
bread. Yes, his resurrection is linked to the feast of First Fruits
(I Cor 15:20,23). Yes, the Ruach HaKodesh / Holy Spirit was outpoured
on the Feast of Pentecost. Yes, the resurrection of the dead will be
"at the last trump" (I Cor 15:52) (A term for Rosh HaShanah). Yes,
Yeshua/Jesus will set foot on the Mount of Olives on Yom Kippur. Yes,
Yeshua/Jesus was born on Sukkot. Yes, Sukkot teaches us about the
Messianic Age. Yes, Simchat Torah (rejoicing in the Torah) teaches us
about eternity. Just this paragraph alone should cause a Christian
to stop and think and say, "The redemption, the Messiah and the
Feasts" are linked to each other. Since I believe in Messiah, they
MUST be important".
There are VERY POSITIVE issues regarding how the
Festivals are linked to Messiah. Yes, this needs to be shown and seen.
But, what also needs to be seen is how the origins of Christmas and
Easter come from paganism and that this is a golden calf system of
worship (mixing paganism with the true worship of the God of Israel)
and calling this worship, the true worship of the God of Israel.
Since most Christians have a positive identity of Christmas and
Easter to Messiah, the issues of the origin and Christmas and Easter
and the light of the Festivals BOTH need to be seen and discussed.
We are called to be DISCIPLES (which is a student).
What has just been mentioned above only SKIMS THE SURFACE of the
richness of the Biblical Festivals. The subject entails so much that
a book needed to be written to explain the various themes and aspects
of the Festivals which I have done. This forum is not meant to be a
substitute for personal study so therefore we can't discuss all the
things that need to be discussed on this newsgroup regarding the
festivals.
I have written in my book, "The Seven Festivals of the
Messiah" info on the birth on Yeshua/Jesus during the festival of
Sukkot (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2175/chap9.html). I praise
God that Yeshua/Jesus was sent by God and came to us as a little baby
in a manger. But, TODAY, He is sitting at the right side of God the
Father (Hebrews 1:3). While we REMEMBER the humble birth of our
Messiah, God is calling His people today to PREPARE to meet the
bridegroom. With this "wooing" is a plea to leave Babylon and return
to the a purer worship of the God of Israel.
Should we be told HOW to celebrate the Festivals? No,
that would be legalism. Do you know of any Christian who goes to
another Christian during Christmas and says, "You really didn't
celebrate Christmas this year because you didn't do it right". In the
same way, we can't go to our brothers and sisters who are desiring to
observe the Festivals and tell them, "You didn't do it right". For
those who want to make the claim that it is OK with God if you
celebrate Christmas and Easter because "God looks into the heart", I
would say that is it OK how someone attempts to celebrate the
Biblical Festivals because "God looks into the heart".
You also write:
>
> In fact, there is
>not one mention of the Chanukah account in the
>whole of Scripture. The whole "thing" is legend -
>perhaps it is true - but there is no biblical account of
>its authenticity. There are no scriptures which speak
>to spinning wooden dreidels and lighting Menorah's
>and giving presents for eight days. Yet, we are told
>that it is "more biblical" and more "spiritual" to do this
>than to have a Christmas tree or having lights around
>the house or in giving presents. No parallels here???
>There are no scriptures that speak to even the
>existence of the Maccabees and yet we are told that
>this extra biblical account is more important to
>celebrate than the 4-6 solid chapters of scripture
>regarding the virgin birth and the eventual birth of
>Messiah found in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke
>and John. And now some are writing that though are
>salvation will not be effected, our rewards/position in
>Heaven and perhaps even our prayer lives will be
>effected if we celebrate Christmas instead of
>Chanukah. What is wrong here? Does this puzzle
>anyone else???
>
The Maccabees are documented in history to have lived.
Their family ruled Israel from the Maccabean revolt to the days of
Yeshua/Jesus. In order to follow this history, I would encourage you
to examine the book, "The History of the Jews - Part I" from Mesorah
publications, (1-800-Mesorah).
Regarding Chanukah, it has a RICH spiritual lesson for
us today. It is mentioned in the Bible in (John 10:22). We are not
directly commanded by God to observe it in Lev 23. However it tells
us in Zechariah 8:19:
"Thus saith the Lord of hosts: the fast of the fourth month, and the
fast of the fifth, and the fast of the seventh and the fast of the
tenth (which are fast of mourning) shall be to the house of Judah
(the Jewish people) JOY and GLADNESS and cheerful feasts, therefore
love the truth and peace".
Where did God COMMAND these fasts to be observed? Are we
required to observe them anymore than Chanukah? Then, why does God
say that in a future time that these fasts of mourning will become
fast of joy if they won't continue to be celebrate in the Messianic
Age?
We have no reference or indication from scripture that
Chanukah will be observed during the Messianic Age. But will the
feasts of mourning (turned into joy) be observed as mentioned above
in Zechariah 8:19 and not Chanukah also? Can we imagine a Torah
observant Messiah NOT wanting anything to do with Chanukah which
celebrated the victory of God's people over Helenism (Greco
influence) ???
I could understand your statements and this discussion if you
were a
non-Jew and I was Jewish but I am a non-Jew and you are Jewish and I
am encouraging believers in Messiah to celebrate the Biblical
holidays and you are not. To use your question, "What is wrong
here?". LOGICALLY, shouldn't it be the other way around ???
So, what is the conclusion of the matter?
The Spirit of God is awakening believers ALL OVER THE WORLD to
examine the roots of their faith. In doing so, they are reevaluating
keeping the sabbath and the Biblical Festivals. The FIRST step is to
STUDY. SECOND, begin to observe as the Ruach HaKodesh leads.
THIRD, in observing the Festivals, don't be bound by legalism and
Rabbinic Judaism. God honors the heart.
When we GROW in the knowledge of our faith, we are
spiritually making ALIYAH (which means 'to ascend'). Does that make
those who have not yet grown in their understanding heathens if they
have accepted Yeshua/Jesus as Messiah? Heaven forbid! But, those who
are strong (have grown in their understanding) are to bear the
burdens of the weak (teach those who are seeking the ways of God and
His Kingdom) in LOVE. This is the heart and purpose of the ministry
that God has given me and the heart of this newsgroup.
Eddie Chumney
**********************************************************************