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From:          Rabbi Moshe Joseph Koniuchowsky
To:             heb_roots_chr@hebroots.org

          (An Interactive Discussion between JT and Larry)

JT: The original true followers of YHWH (Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc.) did not call their religion "Judaism" (obviously). We do not know what they   called it   or if they called it anything. For our own purposes we will just call it   YHWHism as oposed to Ba'alism.

LARRY: Accepted

JT: The "YHWHism" involved a covenant (or series of covenants) between YHWH  and  the  Am-Yisrael (the people of Israel).

LARRY: Accepted
JT: YHWH had initially made a Covenent with all mankind (Gen. 9) the Noachdic   Covenant.

LARRY: Accepted

JT: Later YHWH made a unique Covenant with Abraham and with his seed Isaac and   Jacob. (Gen. 17) This covenant required circumcision) The Abrahamic   Covenant.

LARRY: Accepted

JT: Still later YHWH made a further covenant with Am-Yisrael (the people of   Israel) and gave us the Torah (Ex. 34) The Mosaic Covenant.
LARRY: Accepted
JT: A non-Israelite could enter this covenant and become part of the people of   Israel if he/she so chose to (Ruth) by joining into this covenant and its   people.

LARRY: Accepted

JT: Am-Yisrael became YHWH's chosen covenant people. There were still other   followers of YHWH who were not part of Am-Yisrael, but Am-Yisrael was   chosen to be YHWH's covenant people who would one day rule the world. They   were to be a nation of priests to the rest of the world.

LARRY: Accepted

Eventually Am-Yisrael split into two houses:
  The House of Israel/Ephraim/Joseph (10 Tribes)
  The House of Judah (2 tribes)

LARRY: Accepted
JT: The House of Israel was divorced by YHWH (Jer. 3:8) but to preserve a   remnant the House of Judah was not (see also Hosea 11:12-12:1).

LARRY: Accepted

JT: The House of Isreal was scattered, mos tlikely into Europe. They abandoned   Torah and the covenants and turned entirely to pagan gods. Eventually they   embraced Christianity and continued in paganism.
LARRY: Accepted
JT: Judah however always had a remnant maintaining the covenant.

LARRY: Accepted

JT: As a result "YHWHism" became known as "Judaism"

LARRY: Mmmm .... ????????

JT: When the Messiah came many thousand embraced him as Messiah. These were   the Nazarenes. They took the message to the Gentiles, many of whom were   Ephraimites but did not know it. These people almost immediately paganized the message. Eventually the Nazarene movent disappeared, although there   have always been Torah observant Jews who believed Yeshua was Messiah.


JT: Now there were two Torahs to the Mosaic Torah of the Mosaic Covenant.   A Written Torah and an Oral Torah. Without the Oral Torah one would not   know how to kill an animal, what a "bill of divorcement" is, how the Hebrew   calendar functions, etc.  In short without the Oral Torah there is no way to observe the written   Torah and no   Covenant.

LARRY: Mostly accepted. Oral Torah needs to be defined. If it conflicts with written  Torah, then it is not acceptable. Rabbinical Judaism, as I'm sure you know much  better than I, is in the habit of "reinterpreting Torah". It appears that Oral Torah  prior to the destruction of the Temple in 70 C.E. is fairly safe, but afterwards, into  the Rabbinical period, well it must be examined very closely in the light of written  Torah or we can get into some problems that border on the same problems that  "churchianity" has. But it is agreed generally that the Oral Torah explains to us how  to "keep" the written Torah.   
JT: Eventually many Ephraimites and Gentiles started to wake up from their   paganism and seek Torah. Typical of this is the Yahwist movenent and the  old WWCG movement.    

JT: During the same time period many Jews started to wake up from their messiah-blindness and see Yeshua as Messiah. Typical of this was the Messianic Movent and more recently the Nazarene Movement.

LARRY: Well..yes and no. Even though many Jews (Yahudi) have come to know the  Messiah through the Messianic and Nazarene movements, I'm sure you will find the  majority of the people making up these congregations are primarily returning  Ephraimites who are LEARNING to follow Yahshua and how to be observant. This  phenomena has not gone unnoticed by the predominately Jewish leadership of the  larger organizations. Instead of being a cause for great joy and celebration for the  leadership to see Ephraim returning, it has become the subject of great concern. The  solution, lets convert them to be us (and of course along with that goes all of the man  made traditions of Rabbinical Yahuda that have absolutely no bearing on an Ephraimites relation to Torah (both the written and applicable oral Torah) and  Yahshua! If they don't convert, well, they can stay on (because we need the money)  but they can't hold office or any leadership positions (kind of like the way  Samarians were treated by the Judeans - as second class citizens).

JT: Now when the Ephraimites attempted to embrace the Mosaic Covenant they   found a problem. There were no Ephraimites who had maintained the covenant   and preserved the Oral Torah for them to join to. So while they decided to   start keeping the feasts, they had no idea how. They had no idea what to   do on these days. Even worse they still cannot agree on a calendar.

LARRY: Agreed, with some reservations. One of Yahudas key responsibilities has been to  teach Torah to the world. It is through Yahuda that Ephraimites are supposed to  learn how to keep the feasts and the balance of Torah. As far as the calendar goes,  disagreement on a calendar is not the exclusive domain of Ephraim. Does all of Rabbinical Judaism agree with the Karaites calendar? Do they even agree on the  correctness of their own?

As far as the Ephraimites having not maintained the covenant and Oral Torah for  them to join to, as already mentioned, this has been one of the responsibilities  (mostly unfulfilled) of Yahuda, to teach Torah to the Gentiles. Now, AS A  RETURNED EPHRAIMITE, I can say most assuredly that no Yahudi came knocking at  my door wanting to know if I would like to learn Torah! No Yahudi has volunteered to  teach me how to keep the feasts! So how is it that this Ephraimite has learned (and is  continuing to learn) Torah, the Feasts of YHVH, etc., etc.? I have learned and I am  learning on my own by seeking Him and the knowledge of Him through the calling and  power and blessing of the Ruach HaKodesh! It is by that calling and power that I and  others have been brought out of Pagan teachings into this wonderful light. It is how  we have been drawn to the teachings out there such as yours, and this is pretty much  how most Ephraimites are learning. That my brother is only by the calling and power  of the Ruach and is not only a miracle in and of itself, but is a direct fulfillment of  prophecy.

JT: There is no way for Ephraimites to enter the Mosaic covenant as Ephraim.
LARRY: STRONGLY DISAGREE! Ephraimites were all once part of the Mosaic covenant  at Sinai and need to re-enter the covenant the same way that Yahuda needs to  re-enter the covenant, through the blood of the Lamb and the outpouring of the  Ruach. Any other way is legalism and works based. I do not see any supporting texts  that show Ephraim changing to another entity in order to enter the covenant.

JT: Ephraim was divorced and has not preserved the covenant.

LARRY: True, they have not preserved that covenant, that has been for Yahuda, but.all  praise be to His Holy Name and halleluYAH! Ephraim is being brought back as a bride  again (Hosea 1:16,23)! Jer. 31: 9,10 calls Ephraim "His son and firstborn" and we are  told that He will gather them and watch over them as a shepherd (this seems to have suspiciously strong ties to John 10). We are also shown concerning Ephraim, that they  are ".a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to Elohim,."  1 Ptr. 2:9. I can accept that!

JT: However Judah HAS preserved the Mosaic Covenant. Judah HAS preserved both  the written and Oral Torah. Moreover a remnant of Judah has woken up to   who the Messiah is. Moreover Judah's understanding of these things gives   Judah a better understanding of Messiah as well.

LARRY: True except that even though Yahuda may have a better overall understanding  of who Messiah is in total, the new believer, Ephraimite or even a secular Yahudi, has  the full imparted righteousness of Moshiach the instant he walks under the wings of His Tallit!

JT: The hope of Ephraim is not to reestablish herself as a separate House. The   hope of Ephraim is to be runited with Judah and come back from her rebelion  in the first place. This is the prophetic picture in the scriptures.

LARRY: STRONGLY DISAGREE! The hope of Ephraim, as with all mankind, is found in our  ultimate redemption provided by His unspeakable gift of life through the death of  the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Being reunited with Yahuda as the  restored Nation of Israel is part of this awesome plan of redemption. Yahuda is not  innocent of rebellion either my brother. It's only by His providence that they have  been left to safeguard His Torah. We will ALL come back from our rebellion when we  recognize His authority over us through the Moshiach, and accept Him as our living  Torah.

JT: The stick of Ephraim is joined to the stick of Judah (Ezek. 37).

LARRY: And reading on in vs. 19 ".so that they will become one in my hand". This does not  say that they are made subservient to Yahuda, but that they are joined to them and  that they both become as "one" in His hand.

JT: Branches from Ephraim are grafted into Judah to be fed by the root of Judah.  (Rom. 11)

LARRY: Brother I do not see the olive tree in RM. 11 as Yahuda. I see the olive tree as  Israel and the root as Yahshua. Ephraimite branches remain Ephraimite branches, and  Yahudi branches that have been broken off, are grafted back in as Yahudi branches,  all together comprising the restored 12 tribe Nation of Israel.

JT: and Ephraim will come to Judah and grab hold of her tzitzit (a sign of the   covenant) and say: "We have heard that Elohim is with you (plural) and we   will go with you (plural)." (Zech. 8 last verse.)

LARRY: Yes, as reunited brothers again!

JT: In other words Ephraim should rejoice that Judah has preserved the covenant  as Judaism and join Judah.

LARRY: WHAT? Rejoice that Yahuda has preserved the covenant yes, but join Yahuda? I  guess that all depends on what you mean by "join Yahuda"?

JT: Now the gentiles who are not Ephraimites (and who knows who is and who   isn't anyway)

LARRY: Yahshua knows brother!

JT: could theoretically just keep the Noachdic covenant (Gen 9) and never progress into the Chosen people by entering the House of Judah   through the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants (Ge, 17 & Ex. 34). However they   would not be part of Am-Yisrael. They would NOT be part of the bride. They would NOT be a nation of priests (they would be the ones we are  priests to). They would NOT rule with Messiah from Jerusalem for 1,000  years. Instead they would make pilgrimages to Jerusalem at Sukkot (an the  other feasts?) to pay homage there. They will be ruled over BY Am-Yisrael.

I am reminded of the comercial where the stork is looking at the two hamburgers  each with a pickle on it. One with a small pickle and one with a big   pickle. He looks back and forth at each of them and then says: "duh!".

Now in theory a person could in my opinion remain outside of Am-Yisrael and still be saved and still be a righteous gentile. But I cannot imagine  someone choosing that position in the Kingdom when they could rule with Messiah.

LARRY: Kinda makes me glad I'm an Ephraimite! Praise be to His Name though that the  true Gentile can become a member of Am-Yisra'el by taking on Torah! And praise be  to Him that His love for creation is so deep that He has made that provision for the  Gentile! Holy and blessed is He who rules over ALL Israel!

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